|Subject: Expresso: "Support
for the militias will cease"
Source: Expresso Date: 23.10.99 Dateline: Jakarta Byline: Tony Jenkins Original Language: Portuguese Scope: Abridged Headline: "Support for the militias will cease"
[ ] Abdurrahman Wahid, better known in his own country as Gus Dur, spoke to the Expresso in the lobby of the Hotel Mandarin at the start of the Popular Consultative Assembly (MPR), the body that has just elected him President of Indonesia.
Expresso (Exp.): If you were elected President, would you respect East Timors independence?
GD: I have said on many occasions that we will respect the plebiscite and obey international law.
Exp.: Would you immediately establish diplomatic relations with Dili?
GD: We are going to establish diplomatic relations, but only at chargé daffaires level, because we have to maintain Indonesias sovereignty and self-esteem.
Exp.: Why should treating Timor Loro Sae as an equal affect your sovereignty and self-esteem?
GD: I am sure you understand what I mean. East Timor was a very difficult and emotional problem for many Indonesians. It is better not to discuss certain matters.
Exp.: Are the military the problem? Will you be able to convince them to stop supporting the militias in West Timor, and to allow Timor Loro Sae to live in peace?
GD: Yes, the military are a problem. If necessary, we shall make changes in posts in the TNI (Armed Forces) in order to stop the support for the militias. But we have to be fair to the Armed Forces. Not all of what you in the international media say about the TNI is true. For example, you reported that the militias had killed Xanana Gusmaos father and brother, but now we know that it was not true. Much of what happened in East Timor was the result of a campaign by the integrationists, not by the military.
Many members of the TNI are respectable people. They consider themselves the cornerstone of the building of our country.
Exp.: It appears that the Army is training Timorese militias to embark on guerrilla warfare.
GD: I can assure you that I shall take that matter in hand. It will not happen. I shall undertake responsibility for that personally, and it is going to stop.
Exp.: But the Army has already shown that it is not prepared to give up its political power and the role it plays in Indonesian civil society.
GD: We have to maintain the "Double Function" of the Armed Forces for another five years, until the next elections. The "Double function" is related to the personal income levels of military personnel. First, we have to solve that problem. But they are not likely to take part in the next elections, in 2004.
Exp.: Do you think that the Army is going to accept your authority?
GD: The military accept me as President. I have already told the TNI that we ought to separate the Ministry of Defence from the Cabinet of the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. The Minister must be a civilian. Furthermore, we have to alternate all the branches of the Armed Forces Army, Navy and Air Force so that no particular one is dominant. The Armed Forces are our adversary, not our enemy. We have to change their hearts.
Exp.: What do you think about the investigation into atrocities committed in East Timor? Do you accept the international commission, or will you be insisting on a national investigation process, like President Habibie? GD: I do not like these national-level investigations. They cannot guarantee an impartial investigation. I do not believe that the national (human rights) commission will be able to carry out such a task. I am a member of that commission and I know that it will not implement justice. Only an international commission can do justice in this case.
Exp.: Was General Wiranto responsible for what happened in East Timor? What would happen if the international commission were to formally accuse him of war crimes?
GD: No comment.
Exp.: Pressure from separatists exists in other parts of Indonesia, such as Aceh. How are you going to deal with the problem?
GD: I want to decentralise power a lot of power to the regions. I supported the holding of a referendum in Aceh. But we cannot use the world "federation". It is a word with negative connotations in Indonesia because of its association with the Dutch colonial past. They used the federation as a means of dividing and dominating the Indonesian people.
Exp.: Corruption is extremely destabilising. How will you deal with it?
GD: Suharto ought to be investigated and tried by a court. That would serve as an example. Once he is sentenced, we could then negotiate with him in order to recuperate the countrys money. That way, we would not be so dependent on aid from the international community. It would also contribute to restoring our national pride.
Exp.: The most powerful political force in Indonesia is that of the students on the streets. Will you be able to control them?
GD: There is no student power. What we have are small groups of students, and the men who are behind them are all hooligans. That is why there are hooligans among them. I do not like violence. I am a follower of Mahatma Gandhi. I told the students that we can exert pressure without resorting to violence, and that we can move towards democracy without violence; that way, God will allow it.
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